Religious Abuse and Spiritual Trauma with Karen Huckaby, LMFT

[00:00:05] Speaker A: This is the Return, a podcast about religious reconstruction in a world of deconstruction. I'm Jordan Maddox. [00:00:13] Speaker B: And I'm Dustin Maddox. [00:00:14] Speaker A: We are not related. [00:00:16] Speaker C: Different spell. [00:00:28] Speaker A: Dustin, how was Easter for a pastor? What's that like? [00:00:32] Speaker B: It's low key, no press, and people are just generally the biggest. [00:00:38] Speaker A: It's the biggest. It's the soup. Okay. From a pastoral perspective, is Christmas or Easter more of the Super Bowl? [00:00:45] Speaker B: Oh, Personally, I prefer Easter to Christmas just because it's the end of the story and it's. Or not. Then it's the end and the beginning. So I don't know. It's just fun to talk about resurrection. [00:01:03] Speaker A: But from a, like, church organizational leadership perspective. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Probably Easter. Just because the end of the year energy is there with Christmas. Everyone's just. And you're coming off of a marathon of holidays at the end of the year. [00:01:24] Speaker A: That's a good point. [00:01:25] Speaker B: So people are just like, oh, my gosh, I don't want to be around these family members anymore. And so, like, Christmas Eve service, for example, we try and be like, in and out, 45 minutes to an hour. Quick, quick. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Because Easter, it's like the main show. I recall spending a lot of tearful moments on Saturdays before Easter at Ross. Our arguing with my mother about which Easter shirt I was forced to buy and wear for pictures. Those are my memories. And then the Easter egg hunt. I lived for the hunt. [00:01:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:56] Speaker A: The hunt was where. I still do that. [00:01:58] Speaker B: You still do? [00:01:58] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. The hunt is incredible. What about you, Karen? [00:02:01] Speaker C: Growing up, we had a live. I don't know what they're called. A live action drama of the entire Passion. Yes. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:02:12] Speaker C: Where it was. The whole service was like, maybe an hour and a half of a full production of the Easter story. [00:02:20] Speaker B: Holy mackerel. [00:02:22] Speaker C: Of someone being straight up nailed to a cross, which was probably the start of my religious trauma. [00:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that was. That would do it. [00:02:31] Speaker C: Because I saw. It was like my friend's dad or whatever. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:34] Speaker C: Like, he was kidding. Anyway. [00:02:36] Speaker A: Were there. [00:02:36] Speaker B: I'm sure there were some of those. [00:02:37] Speaker C: Oh, it was a huge production. There was probably like a hundred people in the cast. [00:02:42] Speaker A: So catch up. Catch up. The whole thing. [00:02:45] Speaker C: Wow. Yeah. Screaming. [00:02:46] Speaker A: So dust vision. Have you considered this? [00:02:49] Speaker B: As I am now. [00:02:50] Speaker C: Have I got an idea for you. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Wow. I. Jeez. [00:02:54] Speaker A: People love spectacles. It's a thing, you know, they'll show up for a spectacle. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:59] Speaker C: But then going home and eating my weight in chocolate and jelly beans was actually my favorite. [00:03:04] Speaker B: Hundred percent. [00:03:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:06] Speaker A: I have a confession. My mom left Easter Baskets of candy at our door. So we'd wake up on Easter until I was like 17 and I was still hyped for them. I'd still open my door, where's that Easter basket with those foil wrapped chocolates? I can't. I, you know, I. Some mornings, some Easter mornings in adulthood, I'll open up my door and look down. [00:03:27] Speaker B: All right, Kelsey, here's your opportunity. Here's your opportunity. [00:03:30] Speaker A: She can finally help me. Yeah. [00:03:31] Speaker B: All right, so what are we talking about today? [00:03:34] Speaker A: We're going to be talking about spiritual trauma. [00:03:38] Speaker B: I see what we. [00:03:39] Speaker A: That's what we call a forward right turn. And we have the wonderful Karen Huckabee with us, who is an LMFT and specializes in working with people with spiritual trauma and backgrounds of religious abuse. So thank you so much for sitting down with us. [00:03:58] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. [00:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:59] Speaker C: Good to be here. [00:04:00] Speaker B: You're so cool. [00:04:00] Speaker C: Oh, thanks. [00:04:02] Speaker A: So I want to start just by asking you to briefly talk through your spiritual journey and how you got to where you are now and just give us some perspective on kind of your perspective. That was a weird way to say it. I'm going to rephrase that. Tell us your spiritual journey. [00:04:21] Speaker C: Excellent place to start. I realize now, even thinking about this, that my spiritual journey is really just me. Church journey. [00:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:29] Speaker C: I think how it started. I was born and raised in a church pew. Not really, but I grew up in an evangelical free church. My parents still go there today. I gosh, yeah. I started awana there when I was three. [00:04:45] Speaker A: Thank God. [00:04:46] Speaker C: Stopped Awana when I was 12. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Just couldn't get. You couldn't memorize those verses. [00:04:51] Speaker C: I didn't enough. Yeah, it was a lot. But yeah, like family. We went to church multiple times a week. And I. We were the house in the late 80s, early 90s where my parents would listen to focus on the family. We would. [00:05:06] Speaker A: Jim James. Jimothy. [00:05:09] Speaker B: Jimothy. [00:05:09] Speaker C: Ah, the Jimothy. I read all the voice of the. Or no. Yes. I read voice of the martyr publications. Are you guys familiar with that? [00:05:19] Speaker B: I am not. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Oh, here we go. You need to hear the story. [00:05:24] Speaker C: Fun. So I have martyr trauma. That's exciting. [00:05:27] Speaker A: Explain what that is for listeners. Aunt Dustin? [00:05:30] Speaker C: I am. I think it was a magazine, but they also had books where it would tell stories of people who gave up their life to share the gospel in mostly third world countries. And I read the hell out of those things and I traumatized myself and. [00:05:48] Speaker B: Read the hell into and I read. [00:05:49] Speaker C: The hell into myself. But they were like, really interesting. And I Was like, oh, my gosh, people actually do this, and this is how people live their life, and I need to be ready to die for Christ. And I think I was, like, 11 when I started reading those. And anyway, that mixed with all the Left behind books that I read, the kids version and the adult version, that was fun. I got a purity ring from my parents when I was, like, in eighth grade. I. Because we went to an Evie Free church, I. We were very much pressured all the time to share your faith with people. And so you're just always on guard and feeling guilty for not talking about Jesus, like, all the time. [00:06:24] Speaker A: See you at the flag pole. [00:06:25] Speaker C: See you at the poll. I was part of, like, leadership teams, drama teams, evangelism, prayer teams. I volunteered and was employed at the church at different points. I then went to college at Fresno Pacific University. [00:06:45] Speaker B: Go sunbirds. [00:06:46] Speaker C: Go Sunbirds. We still don't know. Is a sunbird a real bird? [00:06:50] Speaker B: It is a real thing. Somebody Google it and let us know some facts. [00:06:54] Speaker C: Deal. I met my now husband. He was going to a Bible college in Chicago, and so we did long distance for a long time. And then we got married and he became a pastor at a rural conservative church where he was a pastor there for 10 years. We did a lot of ministry there, and it was really cool. We did enjoy it. We had a lot of good times. And somewhere in all of that, I think I started to think about things a little bit differently. But because I felt so strongly about my faith, I felt I needed to take everything super, super seriously. And so I think it was probably in college when I started to take my seriousness and, like, really examine it a little bit and then realize I should think about this. And then somewhere in there, I decided to go to grad school and become a therapist. So that's not really a spiritual journey, but it's where I'm at, and it's definitely where it's led me to, where I am today, which we can get into that later. But realizing that, like, I was in a space of full construction, like, it was constructed for me, and I ate it up, and it was good for me until it wasn't. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah. When did it become a house of cards? [00:08:09] Speaker C: Probably college. Most likely grad school. There were so many little things, I think, that added up to me rethinking everything. And I think I also just. You just meet more people and you just see how other people live and have different. Everyone just has such different lives from each other. And when you're in a bubble, you don't see that as much. Even if your bubble is really big. [00:08:32] Speaker A: I do reflect on that if. Because I have very similar kind of experience and I wonder if I had more exposure. My parents just dropped me off at a Unitarian church like twice a year. [00:08:43] Speaker C: Amazing. [00:08:43] Speaker A: They're like, go smell candles and meet Buddha. I wonder if I would have a different. If when I read Foucault in college it would have been a different thing or not like that exposure, would that have made a difference? I don't know. [00:08:56] Speaker C: I think that's the thing is I think just the older you get and if you allow yourself to be exposed to different things and you have an open mind, you can have your mind be changed. And I think I really love learning and I especially as a girl and a young woman in church where you were just overlooked to assume you were smart or to like you had a. You were capable of choice and cognitive. As I stumble over that, I think with women being overlooked in the church, I watched women be overlooked all the time and realizing that no, I. We all have things to say. We all have really intense either lives or spirituality or. And have really cool stories and. But that was never given a platform. It was never given. I don't know. It was always the men who were able to share stories and lead people. And so it was kind of like, well, I just won't talk because why would I don't have anything meaningful to say. [00:10:02] Speaker B: And then some places, that's what I'm hearing you describe is almost a passive like overlooking or a passing by because of some sort of implicit assumption that women are just don't have something to offer or something to say and unless. [00:10:22] Speaker C: It'S to children or other women. [00:10:23] Speaker B: Exactly. But. But then you take that to its next step. In many places that implicit notion becomes an explicit dogma that explicitly pushes down women and keeps their. Expects them to be silent. And so when even if you're in an environment where it's implicit, it's reinforced by those explicit spaces around you and it leads you to make meaning out of that and similar to how you did. Oh, I guess I'm. I should just sit down and be quiet because why would I have anything meaningful to offer because of my gender? [00:11:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:05] Speaker A: So was it sad? [00:11:06] Speaker C: It is. It was sad. [00:11:08] Speaker A: I'm sorry, I. Was it a final straw or a death by a thousand cuts? [00:11:14] Speaker B: Good question. [00:11:15] Speaker C: A million cuts. Is that an okay. Yeah. [00:11:17] Speaker A: Okay. So it was a confluence of a bunch of things occurring simultaneously. [00:11:22] Speaker C: And it's interesting because I don't know if it's necessarily death. Right. Like, it's. Is it evolution by a thousand cuts? Like, it's. [00:11:28] Speaker A: There you go. [00:11:29] Speaker C: It's a transformation, a resurrection, if you will, into something. [00:11:33] Speaker B: I will. [00:11:33] Speaker C: I will. Yeah. It's just. I don't know, it's something that over time, I think, like, when people are. Like you said, when you are given messaging. [00:11:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:46] Speaker C: Programming over and over again, that. And then if that's all you hear, that is what you eventually believe. And I think because of that, me getting to this point now where it's, oh, I. I actually don't know if I regret anything or I look back with any disdain anymore. I did at one point, but now I don't because I'm like, it's made me who I am today and I really who I am today. And so, yeah, change any part of that and I might be different now and I'm tr. I think I'm trying to give it more of a graceful view of it than I have in the past. But, yeah, it's interesting. [00:12:26] Speaker B: So that is a mature and thoughtful and integrated response. Right. Like, you've obviously sat with the pieces of your story and alongside the pieces of the stories of others who have had similar journeys where they've gone through a particular upbringing in cultural Christianity, in, broadly speaking, evangelical traditions that have some helpful components and other really harmful and destructive messaging or implications. So how did that process of your own, your ongoing maturation development, making meaning of your growing up experience, lead you to the reclaim? And what is the reclaim and what is the work that you do here? Yes, I say here because we are currently at the reclaim. [00:13:27] Speaker A: We are sitting here. [00:13:28] Speaker C: Yes, we are welcome after. Thank you for being here. Yes. Yeah. So in there was a thing that happened that was COVID 19. I don't know if anybody knows about that. [00:13:40] Speaker B: I'll Google it later. [00:13:41] Speaker C: Okay, cool. Great. Catch up. There was. So if you were a therapist during that time, which was an interesting time, a bunch, like, we would have networking conversations with each other. And we were realizing, especially pre pandemic, really starting in 2016, when the orange man was put into office, people started noticing that there were things coming up in people's psyche, like, with our clients that were like, connected to church. And we couldn't figure out. It was like a phenomenon that we realized, like, was happening. And I'm sure this happened everywhere, but it was like everyone's collective unconscious was like, oh, my gosh, like, my weird uncle is becoming president and we don't like this or like this. He reminds me of a Pastor I knew or a clergy member that harmed me in some way or my family or whatever. And it was coming up in sessions with people, and it was like, wait, what are we all experiencing this? And then we just talked about it, me and a couple friends. And then we realized. I had conversations with Naomi Wiens and Brianna Turner, who are my. Our co founders of the Reclaim. We were having all these conversations about, wait, I think, like, religious trauma is a thing. And we knew it was, but it was. Being there was like this upswell of it after that election and then into the pandemic where communities didn't happen as much anymore and people missed that. And so anyway, we realizing too that in therapy, especially in. I don't know how we would market ourselves. Like, nobody really marketed towards that. It wasn't really a thing that people offered for clients to process. And we were like, how. Why is that not a thing? [00:15:29] Speaker A: And because there's so many niches in the. [00:15:31] Speaker C: There's so many. [00:15:32] Speaker A: And there's. That's such a. Especially where we live in the Bible Belt. Like, that's such a important part of everyone's lives around here. [00:15:40] Speaker C: Yeah. And so we. There is a group in. I believe they're in Minneapolis. They're called the Reclamation Collective. And it's a group of therapists who do a lot of workshops and stuff for other therapists. So specifically who work for. With clients dealing with religious trauma and spiritual abuse. And Naomi and I, unbeknownst to each other, were in a workshop together on Zoom in that. And we were like, oh, my gosh. Okay, now we have to have these conversations. Cause I think we're gonna start something in town. And so we started having talks, and it was really cool. We started our office here in 2022. So we're coming up on three years, which is very exciting. And we're ever evolving what we're doing with clients and clinicians in the community. [00:16:19] Speaker B: And. [00:16:19] Speaker C: And we just want to do business differently. We want to figure out if there's a way to not do patriarchy and hierarchy in business. And we all see other clientele as well. But a couple of us specifically love working with folks dealing with religious trauma and spiritual abuse. I probably have 80% of my caseload. Is that right now? [00:16:40] Speaker A: Let's talk about that for a second. [00:16:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:41] Speaker A: I want to talk about in the aggregate. I don't want to talk about individual things, but what are the broad strokes of the issues around here? If you were to paint broadly, on average, what a person that's dealing with, what Are they coming in? What's been their experience? What's the. What's the thing? What's. What have they run into in church that they're coming to get help for? [00:17:01] Speaker C: Very common trauma responses that I see, I would say almost every day, depending on who I see that day. Difficulty making decisions, boundaries, perfectionism, sexual dysfunction in some way, whether it's personal or in a coupleship. Codependency. So many chronic health conditions, like, alongside whatever anxiety or depression people are dealing with. I would say, like, anxiety is mostly it, but a lot of ocd, scrupulosity issues, especially when it comes to, like, black and white thinking. And I have to do things a certain way and I can't get out of those cycles and needing, like, tricks to get out of that and to process that in different ways. And there's a zillion others, but especially actually. And I would say shame and guilt. People just being riddled with guilt and shame over sometimes really innocuous things that maybe other people would be like, this really isn't a big deal. But to them, it's like, been with them their whole entire life because that's what they were given. That was the script they were given that they had to have before they even started school when they were a kid. And so that's a huge. Those are really common ones that I would see. Probably, like I said, I would say daily, weekly. [00:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah. There was things that were reinforced to me for 18 years, and then when I went to live on my own, I wouldn't do them. And I would look around to see Sauron's eye or something watching me. Like. Like, I remember, I think, just not going to church. And I would feel at different points like someone was gonna catch me. Yes, I was gonna get caught. And then everyone's gonna know. And then once everyone knows, I'm gonna go sit in the naughty corner or something. I'm kind of some kind of very child like duty to follow orders. [00:19:08] Speaker C: If you go sit in front of the church board or something. [00:19:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And so I think. So if you have something reinforced with the threat of spiritual punishment. [00:19:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:20] Speaker A: For 18 years, it's natural that you feel some kind of guilt. And it is weird how it comes up for certain things and not others. And I don't know why, as some. Did you have any kind of spirit? Because I. Dustin, I know you didn't have the kind of Bible capsule that we had, but do you have any kind of adjacent things that you can identify with this? [00:19:45] Speaker B: I think from my own experience, like, the I feel like I grew up with the inverse of what the two of you grew up with. And not that I didn't have some structure, some order, some obligation and duty that I was meant to follow, but because my parents had walked away from all of that, there. There was a lot longer chain between the anchor and the boat that caused me to, I think, drift pretty recklessly and confusingly around through much of my childhood. As somebody who's like, incredibly intuitive, trying to make meaning out of things, a lot I would find myself without the resources to make meaning of. I didn't have a story that I was living into or any. Anything like that left me as riddled with shame and guilt for not having that thing as I've heard people like yourselves describe with having it. Yeah. So a lot of my own journey has been trying to repair a lot of those scripts that I gave myself or picked up along the way. [00:21:17] Speaker A: Culturally, it is fascinating our responses. I had a friend in seminary who grew up in. His parents were very, quote, secular and he started going to like an evangelical church in like high school. And his parents hated it. They despised it. [00:21:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:34] Speaker A: And so they'd come home. He'd come home. [00:21:36] Speaker B: I've heard this. [00:21:37] Speaker A: If you come home from this evangelical church and his dad, who was a professor at some university in Seattle, would be like, did they finally place you in your house? Is it Gryffindor? Is it Ravenclaw? So just constantly mock him. [00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:50] Speaker A: And it was. It's just. It's so interesting to. Because I think that's what I hear from a lot of people, especially people that push their kids. Like Karen and I were pushed into these, like, very intense, religious structured environments. Is the idea is you're giving your kids a, quote, moral foundation and you're giving them direction and structure. And I think that in theory is good, but I think in practice the over emphasis about rules and perfectionism and like, punishment is probably part of the problem. But I also don't know how to. How do you create that without some kind of sense of there's a right and wrong way to do things? I don't know. So I think about this a lot. I think a lot of religious people, especially people that drop off their kids at Awanas, that's what they think they're doing. And so there might be some, like, ignorance as to what the actual outcomes of that are. [00:23:12] Speaker B: So what's Karen, help us understand the, the. The definitions of spiritual trauma, religious abuse, and how people that you interact with, like how are they carrying that stuff around you've listed off some of the symptoms, but further upstream, like what did they encounter or experience that led to those downstream symptoms? [00:23:42] Speaker C: Yeah. So I will say that one of the things I know that this podcast is mainly looking at Christianity from that lens. I will say too, I probably see, generally speaking, I think I see equal amounts. I don't only see Christians, like Christians or ex Christians. I see current and ex Mormons, Muslims, couple Orthodox Jews, couple Jehovah Witnesses. And I'm always baffled by how many of the stories are similar and that so many of these symptoms are. It doesn't. [00:24:20] Speaker A: So what you're saying, it's the structure of religion. [00:24:22] Speaker C: It's a structure and it's when it's more high control, fundamental, usually more conservative, not always, but usually and especially when it's just very strict. And so I like to think about spiritual trauma and because abuse and trauma and adverse experiences are all different, but specifically spiritual and religious abuse is the act of using God or religion to manipulate or to exert control over a person or a group of people. It is very, I would say abuses, insidious because it can be sneaky, it can be not necessarily as overt as we think it always is or see it in the news or whatever. [00:25:06] Speaker A: Can you experience it? Let's say, I don't know. I'm being manipulated. I think someone's just laying out the path to Candyland for me. Can I go through that and not have a traumatic wound? [00:25:17] Speaker C: I think so. I also, the thing is we keep talking about and using the word script. I think that's a really helpful word because again, if you're given a script, great, that's really helpful. It gives you some guidelines, some directions to go. But if you're told do not deviate from this script or else fill in the blank, that can cause so many problems. And but if you're given a script that's a little bit more loose, that's a little bit more this is what we all believe, but take some liberties, have some fun with it. That which I mean, I didn't grow up with that. I know some people did. But like I think it doesn't have to be abusive and I don't think it sets out to be. I think it's very good intentioned, usually for the purpose of being healthy, like a healthy whole person. But people don't realize that when you pigeonhole people or you give them again, just one type of script that actually isn't helpful, but you don't see the effects of that till much later. And then you've been saying things from the script for years and you're like, wait a minute, this isn't. Oh gosh, maybe this isn't as helpful or healthy as I thought or that they thought, but they're just giving it to me and I had to go along because they're the ones in power. And that's usually the thing, right? It's abuse comes with power. [00:26:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:32] Speaker C: And it's usually when there's no checks and balances within a church or the hierarchy is unhealthy in some way where there's just one leader or something. [00:26:42] Speaker A: So Karen, what's the difference between abuse and trauma? [00:26:46] Speaker C: Thanks for asking. Spiritual trauma is the specific wound that a person receives. It can be, we call it little T trauma or big T trauma. Like little trauma is. Little T trauma is like over time, a big T trauma is a particular time and place. But it is deep psychological and emotional distress that can be caused from any type of religious spiritual experience. It occurs when a person's beliefs, their sense of meaning or relationship with either divine God, a religious community is damaged, which then there's so many things that can lead from that. Right? Like fear, guilt, alienation, existential crisis, sometimes self harm, like all of those things. But it can come from a lot of different places. But I think it's just good to note the difference between trauma and abuse because specifically abuse is about power and trauma has more to do, at least in my mind, with how a person interprets or, or finds meaning in what happened to them. And technically you can. Also there's like adverse religious experiences too, which are, I don't want to say Miles, because that's is really invalidating. But, but just any experience that undermines a person's sense of self or autonomy or safety in a situation that can impact any number of aspects of a person's life and well being. So we've got trauma, abuse and adverse religious experiences that can go. That can lead to any of those symptoms that I talked about before. And we see all over the place people in all different religious backgrounds, not just Christianity. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Let's go through some of the types and then I would love to hear you respond to each of the types, Karen, and what you think's going on here. So the one you've already just talked about is just authoritarian control, religious abuse, exploiting people, using religion as a tool. And so you just talked about that. The one that I find interesting is doctrinal trauma, which is this idea that scare. It's basically scaring kids with Hell is essentially, to summarize it in colloquial terms. And I. It's. That one's tough because I do think people have strong beliefs about the afterlife. And there comes a question at. Let's say you do conceive of this kind of internal damnation hell, which a lot of more conservative Christians think about. Is that something you just don't share with your children until they're at an age that they can process that? Like, maybe you don't agree with that particular theological point of view, but like, we're entitled to pass on our culture to our children. So like, how do you think about this? This is the one I've gotten the most pushback on. You have your ideas and you're trying to pass those on to your children. But those ideas are scary. Sometimes life is scary. So like, how do you think about that particular sticky issue? [00:30:04] Speaker C: And I think it comes a lot from our culture or maybe like just the Western idea that the mind or the brain wins is just the most important thing. It's about your beliefs, it's about your intentions, it's about your motivations, which I don't know. The more you have any relationships with anybody, you learn that like, your beliefs can only go so far. Intentions only get you so far. But especially in churches, they're put on this pedestal as you have to believe as like your ticket to be in the club. Because I was told that at age 3 that if you don't ask Jesus into your heart, you will go to hell where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. I don't know what half of those words mean when I'm three, but I can imagine it and it's all in my head. [00:30:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:51] Speaker C: And yeah, when you're under a certain age, your brain isn't fully developed. You can't, you don't understand abstract thought. [00:31:00] Speaker A: And so you think there's like an age appropriate level. [00:31:03] Speaker C: But it depends on the kid. Right. And it depends on the parents understanding of their child and what their. They might be a little naive or maybe a little innocent and they might be 15, you don't know. But I think for a lot of people in the church, it's. It is less about, I don't know, I guess to quote like Peter ends, it's more of. It's a sin of certainty. Like you have to be certain above all else. And which to me is funny because then it's, then what do you do with faith and what do you do with any of that? But like, so certainty I Think is if you had to add maybe if the Bible was the fourth person of the Trinity, I would say certainty is the fifth because it's just. It is all about what you believe and what you are thinking to be true rather than. And also I think it is about your actions. But I don't think anybody would really. I don't know if people would admit that would be second. [00:31:58] Speaker A: Yeah, Dustin, how do you think about this pastorally? Like sharing ideas that are scary or like hard to hear and thinking about how a person would receive that versus whether you believe that. Like that kind of like intersection between. I'm trying to be careful, but I'm also believe certain things and I just want to proclaim them, share them, etc. [00:32:23] Speaker B: I think the noticing and naming what is cultural versus what is spiritual or trans cultural is something that I try and point out as often as I can name pastorally. This is us trying to baptize our cultural form and say that this is what we've been like. This is the capital T truth, when maybe it's part of it, but it's not the whole thing. And there are lots of different cultural expressions of this larger truth that we're trying to name or negotiate. And one of just my central convictions is that if what if we're actually talking about the person and presence of Jesus in something, Jesus is going to challenge our cultural forms and we should be expecting that. And so then that allows us the space to say, okay, are these doctrines something that we've just inherited culturally and are passing along? Or where is that true and where is there something actually capital T true here? So trying to nuance in that way. So to say that the way that we communicate in this case the notion of the afterlife to children is it has to be developmentally appropriate and context personally contextualized to a child. And I have no problem saying that that is the way of Jesus because that's exactly how Jesus taught is like person to person contextualize. Here's what this means for you in this moment, in this time and place. And if you're trying to get three year olds to pray the prayer with laying it on thick with weeping and gnashing and trees weeping and gnashing of teeth. Who is that actually? [00:34:21] Speaker A: It's for the parents. Let's go on to the next one. Identity based spiritual trauma I've encountered a few of these in my life. People that are not included because of some aspect of their identity and they lose their admittance to the community because of their sexual partners. Because of their ethnicity or because they've maybe stepped beyond what their church community thinks the bounds of their gender should allow. So I imagine you see a lot of this, Karen. [00:34:50] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:34:51] Speaker A: Is this the primary thing, would you say? [00:34:53] Speaker C: I wouldn't say people would necessarily come for that, but they're looking for somebody who is open and affirming, and so. [00:35:01] Speaker A: They'Re looking for someone to affirm that they're good, that they're just. [00:35:05] Speaker C: That they can exist as a person. Like, it's just super basic. Like, I feel like it's especially in this area, the amount of therapists who market themselves as a Christian therapist, which, by the way, for anybody listening technically is unethical. It's not illegal, but it's very unethical to market yourself with some type of bias, even if you are a Christian. Like, you're not supposed to necessarily put that out there, because the whole point of therapy is to be as unbiased and non judgmental as possible. And if someone comes to you, they all. And you've got that part of your title in your. On your Instagram or whatever. Like, you're already judging, in a way, the other person, and they're probably gonna. You're also putting yourself on a hierarchy. Like, you're putting yourself a little higher. You're creating a power dynamic, really, and you're not making it safe. And the whole point of therapy is to be safe, so. So you can process things without any judgment. And most people in Christian spaces find a ton of judgment, and which obviously is problematic, but I feel like a lot of the folks in the LGBTQ community, like, they are. They're hungry for community, they're hungry for acceptance. And honestly, I think I'm at a point where I'm like, I don't know if it's about acceptance anymore. Like, obviously it is, but it's almost just like a. We're not gonna count any part of that against you because that's actually like the least. One of the least interesting things about you. And can we just, like, I don't know, talk hobbies? [00:36:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:48] Speaker C: What do you do? What are you doing to make a change in the world? Like, I'm at a point and this is just me, but, like, I'm at a point where I'm like, I literally could care less about a person's sexuality because it isn't part of, like, everyday conversation. And can we get past it and people. But the fact that people still feel so ostracized because of that aspect of them is just to Me, like, one of the saddest things. And it. Part of my very close circles. I've got so many people in that community that I'm like, I don't even remember anymore about people's sexuality. Just love people. Why is this hard? But churches, again, major on the minors. That just certain aspects, I don't know where. It's just like, you have to drill it into people that you have to assimilate to some degree to belong and. Or at least think it's a sin. And of yourself that has to. And then you have to be working on it and. Which is just. I don't know how many other quote unquote sins are people then also not addressing in church, if that's the area that we're gonna glom onto. I just get really frustrated about that because all those people then show up on my couch and they're just like, no, literally, nobody loves me. And you're the only person who, like, either will listen to me talk about my sexuality or just about anything about my life without having some type of pretense. And I'm like, that should absolutely not be the case. [00:38:16] Speaker B: Totally. [00:38:16] Speaker C: I should not be that person. I shouldn't be the only person. [00:38:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:38:19] Speaker C: But in the last decade of me doing this, I'm like, probably like 50% of my clientele that I've ever seen have. If they're in that community, they're just like, I don't know where to go. Where. There is no where. There it. Where it is judgment, completely judgment free. And I'm like, okay. I like, obviously that's really sad. And obviously therapy is cool in that way, but. [00:38:46] Speaker B: Right. If you need to pay somebody an hourly rate to feel loved, then that's something that's very wrong with that. [00:38:51] Speaker C: I feel some kind of way about that. [00:38:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:38:54] Speaker A: And I think we. Yeah. That. We've talked about that quite a bit. It's. That wound just carries. It really does. And I don't know, do it. I could talk about that for a long time. Why would doubt lead to trauma for people? Why do you think? Is it that you feel alone? Because I remember when I started to have doubts. And this might be an interesting point in this conversation to talk about being in a household where you and your partner maybe have different religious experiences. But, like, why might doubt lead to trauma? [00:39:39] Speaker C: And especially with trauma, the presence of trauma usually simply just means simply that it. It overwhelms a person's ability to cope with whatever's going on. Like, it just exceeds their ability to Take care of themselves. Or it might send them into the fight flight, freeze fraun flop mode. They keep adding them. And. But if there hasn't been a place for doubt right then. And if certainty has been the most or a crucial part of having a person's religious experience, like, it would make sense that if you feel doubts rise up or well up in your mind, that there might not be a place for that. And then trauma. It wouldn't necessarily imply that you then are traumatized, but it could imply that you don't have the coping mechanisms or strategies to handle that yourself. And a lot of people then just. They just don't think about it. They put it. They push it aside. Or they. Spiritual bypassing. Like, they just were like, I'm gonna pray it away, or God's got. God's gonna take care of it. Which no one's saying God couldn't take care of that. But if there's no other way for you to conceptualize. Can be traumatizing to some degree, especially if you've lived in the comfort of certainty your whole life. [00:41:00] Speaker B: Or if certainty is the mechanism of belonging. [00:41:03] Speaker C: Correct. [00:41:04] Speaker A: Yeah. It reminds me, Dustin, I want you to comment on this. There's this episode of. I'm going boomer here. I'm turning on my boomer switch right now. Band of Brothers. So there's this episode, I think it's number three in the series, where there's a guy that's afraid. [00:41:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:41:23] Speaker A: And he fakes blindness. He, like, hides in a hole. And at some point there, they say something to the effect of fear is contagious. [00:41:33] Speaker B: Yep. [00:41:34] Speaker A: And so if someone's afraid, it can mess up a whole unit of soldiers or whatever. Which makes sense logically. Is that, like, how religious or even pastoral people think about it? If you have doubt in a community. [00:41:48] Speaker B: That it's like a contagion. [00:41:50] Speaker A: It's a contagion that can affect everybody. And then before you know it, you have a mutiny over hymns. I'm just kidding. We can cut that shit out. That's fine. [00:42:01] Speaker B: Sorry. [00:42:01] Speaker A: You fucking set me up. It's fucking softball. [00:42:03] Speaker C: Come on. [00:42:07] Speaker B: Yeah, the. There are certain. Certainly. There are certain communities where certainty is certainly the. Like. The, like, the foundational component of what it means to ironically have faith. That it is a. In many cases, an intellectual thing that you have to believe this formula. And if you don't believe this formula, then, yeah, like, everything else is up for grabs. And. And then, yes, like, doubt becomes that sort of contagion. That's a great way to conceptualize It. And then certainly if you're in. I can't stop saying it. If you're in that environment where you're like, I'm not sure about, did Jonah really survive in the belly of a whale for three days? Then that becomes this slippery slope in the minds of many to. Then you're going to undermine the authority of the scriptures. [00:43:19] Speaker A: Then how many authors of Genesis are there really? [00:43:22] Speaker B: Yeah, come on. Exactly. And so, yeah, I. It certain it can most assuredly lead to people feeling. Yeah. Like at least adverse experiences in religious communities. [00:43:38] Speaker A: I would always push back and because I would be. I grew up in Southern Baptist communities that the doubt, fear was there all the time. And my question was, wait a second. You guys believe this providential stuff about God, but you're also afraid to let people have doubts? Aren't those incongruent? [00:43:55] Speaker B: That's a great point. I've never thought about it like that. That's a great point. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Like, literally, you believe that God has control of everything, but you're worried about people, like, thinking things. [00:44:05] Speaker B: God has. [00:44:05] Speaker A: What are we doing? [00:44:06] Speaker B: God has control of everything. Unless you don't think he does. [00:44:10] Speaker A: It's very confusing. All right, let's talk about shunning next, which I'm about to be shunned right. Right now for bringing up hymns. So sometimes people start believing things or doing things that causes their immediate family to not excommunicate them, but remove them. [00:44:30] Speaker B: From the family group chat. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Yeah. To family group chat. Or to quote Robert De Niro from the Circle of Trust. And that, obviously, I imagine, can be severely traumatic if that's your primary community. [00:44:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Do you see that as well in your practice, people being. I've seen that personally with a friend of mine who is in a certain community where. I'm not gonna say that. Or do you see that in practice? [00:45:00] Speaker C: Yes, I. So I see it actually. This. It makes me really sad thinking about it. But sometimes people are shunned twofold, multiple times. But specifically, like, maybe they're shunned or they're actually excommunicated. I don't even know the word for that, but. And then a lot of times people are like, shunned within their family for coming to therapy to talk about it, because there then isn't a place like, they should go back to the church or go back to the family to deal with it, even though there are no conflict resolution skills to. [00:45:34] Speaker A: To. [00:45:34] Speaker C: To be seen. Not that I'm brought into it or a therapist is brought into it, but it's so just. You can't talk about that outside. Which then just reinforces the fact that you can't be different. And you just constant hiding and constant shaming and right like guilt says I did something bad, but shame says I am something bad. And if you already think that of yourself, but then you're in a, let's say a family who also. They might not say it explicitly, but they implicitly are saying things to you. Or maybe your church community is saying that about you or my God. Rumors disguised in as prayer requests. That's everywhere. And then there's literally nowhere to go. And then it's just this like literally it's a shame spiral that people get stuck in and there really is no way out with within it. If they get stuck there a lot of times they are stuck and if they get out they are like they're probably not coming back to some degree or maybe for a really long time. Like I have multiple clients who, you know, especially over church issues, again, regardless of faith, don't speak to their family anymore because for really innocuous things, but they just for whatever the way that the family or the way that the. The system was set up within the church or the way that the family was involved in the church. Yeah, you can't come back unless you change or unless you change your mind or unless you change your sexuality or you change something about you to belong. [00:47:12] Speaker A: That's so confusing to me. It is just this kind of the gospel message, quote unquote that I grew up with was unconditional love. We love our conditions. [00:47:22] Speaker C: And the hilarious thing is that Jesus didn't. Jesus didn't care about conditions. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really think that there's been a lot of like most people, again, this is said a lot of other places, but like Jesus people don't have issues with Jesus. They have issues with the church. And the way that people have interpreted scripture and used their own, use their own minds to. To make their own. To come to their own conclusions about what Jesus said or didn't say or do or didn't do. And really Jesus most of the time was pretty much cool with a lot of people. And that isn't actually what is reflected in the actual church body as a whole. And I know that is not true of every church. But for just on the very real. But it's so real. And it has been that way for as long as there's been a church. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Very tribal from the jump. [00:48:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:46] Speaker A: Let's talk about our current situation. So this is A reconstruction podcast. And I. I do think people can get better. I don't. I'm not a determinist in the sense that I think you're stuck. I think people can reintegrate with some religious community in some capacity. But what that looks like, obviously, is an individual, case by case situation. Sometimes I will casually say something when I meet someone that had a similar upbringing to me, and I'm like, visit your local, local Episcopalian church. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear. It's fantastic. And so I'll say stuff like that. And they're like, it's not that simple. And I get that. So what, Karen, what is reintegration in religion or spirituality? What does that look like? So I know it's possible. I've met lots of people that have gone through that process. But I'm curious, from your perspective, what that could look like. [00:49:47] Speaker C: Oh, man. How much time do we have? One of the things that I think is important to note is that a lot of people think that because of what I do, I must only see people who have left church. And that isn't true. I see tons of people who are still in faith communities who are thriving and doing really well, and their faith is insanely important to them. And to that, I say, excellent. You should stay there if it's helpful for you. And. But then I have other people where I'm always a little confused because they're in this. They're still in the same circles where they've been hurt many times, abused and manipulated, and they're just like, I can't leave. I just. For whatever reason, lots of reasons, like, they just find themselves stuck. [00:50:34] Speaker A: Is it a trauma bond? [00:50:35] Speaker C: Probably, yeah. [00:50:36] Speaker A: Trauma bond, yes. [00:50:38] Speaker C: Some of the time. [00:50:39] Speaker A: Okay. [00:50:39] Speaker C: But other times, they can't tell other people. And. Yeah. And it's more of an attachment thing because it is about family, and it is about where you have good people in your life. So, again, if it's helpful, stay there. If it's not, let's try something else. [00:50:54] Speaker A: Which is such a theme each of these episodes. Dustin, you probably agree with this. We've just come to the conclusion, find the thing that works for you. [00:51:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:02] Speaker A: And I just wonder if it's a choice situation and just, like, realizing you do have a choice. Do people feel like they have a choice when they come to you, or do you? [00:51:10] Speaker C: I. Sometimes I'm. I don't know. I think. Actually, no. A lot of the time, no, because they have to hide. But especially the question is about, can you reintegrate And I would say you, you could reintegrate if it's a safe situation. And I would say, is it physically safe, is it emotionally safe, is it psychologically safe, is it spiritually safe? Like in a person needs to determine those things for themselves. But it also is if you're in a high control religious setting where there's probably really a lot of dogma doctrine there, you. You might not be able to reintegrate because there's rules, there's unspoken rules about being a part of that community. If you do believe differently, you're gonna feel not like one of us. I personally think. I think I just. I talk about safety literally all the time. I think I just sound like a broken record to myself. But if people aren't feeling safe in some capacity, they should be really wary of that situation. But that's hard. When people have a hard time using their intuition to decide, is this right for me or is it not? And it's hard if you're still hurt and you're still maybe bleeding out from the wounds that you were inflicted. That, yeah, maybe if you really also find joy and acceptance and love there, great. But also maybe don't stay for a little bit or I just think people just don't give themselves enough as many options as they think they have. [00:52:40] Speaker B: And I think that's such a massive component that we haven't exactly named. But I think that we're questioning around and you're pointing at is the empowerment of people's agency. [00:52:57] Speaker C: Yes. [00:52:57] Speaker B: Is that is in many cases what is the most traumatizing is the high control. The surrender. Exactly. Is like you don't have agency. And there are entire theological systems built on the idea that your agency cannot be trusted or is so irredeemable that it needs somebody in a high control environment to tell you to be your agency for you. So I wonder, Karen, like, what is the. That reintegration piece? Is it like an order of operations where if your trauma is the. Your experience of the overwhelm, the inability to cope with that type of space is part of that journey, the being having some sort of differentiation from that community, whether or not you're actually leaving it or you're finding your own sort of space within it. But to do that work of like, self management and agency development, to then step back in as a actual individual in this community that can be interdependent without enmeshment or cut off. [00:54:28] Speaker C: Is there a question in there? [00:54:30] Speaker B: I don't know. I'm processing towards a cl. [00:54:33] Speaker C: I love this. Okay. No. So you guys in episode one talked about your buffet analogy. [00:54:39] Speaker A: The buffet. [00:54:39] Speaker C: I'm going to bring this back around for a minute to maybe answer. [00:54:43] Speaker A: Thank God. Whatever that was, you're really feeding my narcissism. Keep going. That was a great metaphor. Keep going. [00:54:48] Speaker C: Most welcome. Okay, so I'm gonna add, like, what I am gonna call my addendum to it. And I really liked your analogy because I love anything related to food. [00:54:59] Speaker B: Same. [00:55:00] Speaker C: I think that one of the problems with organized religion is that it doesn't ask questions first about spirituality. It. For the sake of metaphor, it offers a meal. And it goes, oh, you're hungry. Here's a meal. And then it says, if you like that meal, just eat this meal every day and you'll be healthy. You'll get all your vitamins, your nutrients, and there's no need to look elsewhere. This is. You got it all right here. Why would you go anywhere else? It's a complete meal, and technically that can be right, especially if you are starving. Wonderful. Thank you for that meal. That is so lovely. But what my. What I would say to that is then if religion actually did a better job, I think it would ask questions like, are. What are you specifically hungry for? Are you hungry for anything? [00:55:55] Speaker A: We need waiters. Not a. [00:55:56] Speaker C: Do you need. Not even that. Like, do you need protein today? [00:55:59] Speaker A: You need nutritionists. [00:56:01] Speaker C: Yeah. You need a dietitian. [00:56:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:03] Speaker C: But also, are you starving? Do you need a snack? Here's how to tell if you're hungry or not. And here's what your hunger cues sound like. And no one is going around teaching that in any church I've ever been a part of. And also just okay, if you're hungry, also here's how you can feed yourself. We don't need to feed you. Yes, we have a buffet. We've got lots of things. Most churches would say that they probably aren't a buffet and they don't like that analogy. [00:56:29] Speaker B: But some churches would explicitly say that, but. [00:56:35] Speaker C: Yeah, oh, now I'm hungry. But like this idea that. Okay, start. I think the church. A lot of doctrine says you shouldn't focus on the individual, but I think you should. You should look at, like, the individual needs of the person, what their trauma is outside of the church. Right. If a person is, like, being abused at home, maybe they're not, like, super stoked to be at church and getting fed, whatever they're fed at church. And. But church doesn't offer that. They just go, here's what we have, and come and go as you please. Sometimes. But also don't go anywhere else. [00:57:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:14] Speaker C: And that to me is really unhelpful because since I left church spaces, I've gotten so much more in touch with who I am, asking myself who I am, what do I need, what do I. What makes me healthy, what's helpful for me, what's unhealthy, what's unhelpful for me medically, what do I need, what medication should I be taking? And. But me learning how to enjoy myself and my own company and just. I don't really need a whole lot and realizing that I'm happy. I find spirituality in many different forms and different. Using different tools and stuff. I'm not coming from a place of like, self deprecation anymore or like lowliness about myself for my place before God. And I think that over time, like, my beliefs around spirituality are actually like, have bust wide open outside of a religious setting because the church actually doesn't talk very much about spirituality. Like, they don't actually address people's spiritual needs. That. That's a hot take for me. But I. Yeah, yeah. [00:58:21] Speaker B: Hot takes. Welcome. [00:58:22] Speaker C: Cool. But that's been the thing that I think speak been missing is like the individual, like, what does a person actually need and what are they hungry for? And maybe the church doesn't need to think that they have everything for everybody. [00:58:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the church has operated with a vaccine model. Like there's some contagious disease, we refer to it as sin, and they have the vaccine for it. And they just plug you in the arm. [00:58:46] Speaker C: Yep. [00:58:47] Speaker A: I think there's a life after the vaccine quote, unquote. And that. What does that look like? I think. I don't know. I think the first order problem is where a lot of thinking stops. And maybe that's a way churches can help people reintegrate is if they start to consider these things more seriously. Because a lot of people will hit us like a ceiling on their maturation and they'll be like, all right, what do I do now? You didn't finish Judges yet. Finish reading Judges and then when you get through Second Samuel, we'll talk. [00:59:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:32] Speaker A: And it's. Don't some of these books repeat themselves a little bit? [00:59:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:36] Speaker A: So I. [00:59:37] Speaker B: Well, I guarantee the person prescribing that hasn't finished their Bible in a year plan either. [00:59:42] Speaker A: So how's your Bible to year going? That's going pretty well. [00:59:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I just got through Judges. [00:59:50] Speaker A: That's underrated. Underrated book. Karen. What in your imagination? And I know they exist out there, but what does a psychologically safe religious community look like? What would be the attributes of a place like that? [01:00:07] Speaker C: One of the things that's come up so frequently in specifically in sessions has been the fact that. And I've asked this of multiple people of different faiths if they've ever encountered in their church setting any type of conflict resolution or conflict having skills and yet to hear a yes. [01:00:32] Speaker B: Wow. [01:00:33] Speaker C: And which. I don't know. The amount of times that churches, we talk about grace and forgiveness and mercy and reconciliation and justice and all of these things, but there's no concrete tools to just how to have a hard conversation with somebody without being scared away or being. Being afraid that they're going to talk to somebody, they'll talk to the pastor. [01:00:59] Speaker A: They'Re going to flop over, rat you out. [01:01:01] Speaker C: Yeah. And I don't know, I look back on all the times I spent in church and I'm like, man, I would have. That would have been so helpful because of how scared I was to just have really difficult conversations and how many things were just, like, glossed over because you just didn't know what to say to somebody who hurt you. And yeah, it's like the verse that I feel like a couple times a year, pastors will be like the verse that says, oh, my God, what is it? [01:01:28] Speaker A: The one from Judges for God so loved the world. [01:01:31] Speaker C: The one where it talks. [01:01:32] Speaker B: The ministry of reconciliation where, like in. [01:01:36] Speaker C: In real time, if you have something against somebody else. [01:01:39] Speaker B: Sermon on the Mount Jesus. [01:01:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:01:40] Speaker B: Go leave your gift at the altar and go and be reconciled. Yeah. [01:01:44] Speaker C: Some people would actually go do that, and it was like, okay, but how do you actually do that? They would say to do that, but they wouldn't say how. And we people need the how. [01:01:52] Speaker B: Wow. [01:01:52] Speaker C: And the amount of times, like, things would actually get figured out if they had a how. And that would be one that I. [01:02:02] Speaker B: Would like just deeply convicting as the leader of a church who one of our three stated publicly core values is reconciliation is the center of our work, and we don't have a how to be in conflict class. Thank you. I'm gonna go do that. That's wildly helpful on just a personal. [01:02:30] Speaker C: Note, so thank you.